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"pipe art, drug art is not art"

Posted by Pakoh on 8/15/2005
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this is not art. dont be confused. art is not pipes. art is not controversial. Because it is glass does not make it art.because it is framed does not make it art. if it referances pipes or drugs it is not art.

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that aint art . upgrade your grey matter, cuz one day it may matter 610 x 600 px (83 KB) 0 Comments	that aint art . upgrade you grey matter... 600 x 600 px (50 KB) 0 Comments	that aint art . cuz one day it may matter 610 x 600 px (102 KB) 0 Comments
that aint art . upgrade your grey matter, cuz one day it may matter 500 x 600 px (57 KB) 0 Comments	that aint art . upgrade your grey matter, cuz one day it may matter 610 x 600 px (63 KB) 0 Comments	that aint art . upgrade your grey matter, cuz one day it may matter 610 x 600 px (100 KB) 0 Comments
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Pakoh's Gallery

Artist: Pakoh

Contact Artist

that aint art.com

http://www.thataintart.com/

Profile Page: http://www.GlassArtists.org/Pakoh

View a full list of Pakoh's Pages

Comments

Art? Pipe? Why care so much
Lucid Visions: Oxymoronic! Seems to me that you need pipes to make art..and if it's not art you should probably put it on glasspipes.org. nice pipe work though.
8/15/2005 7:10 PM

all non art should be on glass pipes.org...
Pakoh: thanks to those who support my ideas, and those with CONSTUCTIVE criticism. The title and blurb are based on some anonymous jackass who commented on my last piece (nuthin to do with lucidvisions).. for people like that "wrongside" asshole, i like what Eminem says... "to all the people ive offended.. yeah FUCK YOU TOO... i still dont give a fuck, yall can kiss my ass"
8/16/2005 8:24 AM

Unbroken Glass
UnBroken Glass: How is art not Controvertial?
8/16/2005 1:10 PM
whoa
Pakoh: Thanks again for the good words and thoughts... constructive crit is always welcome.. peace in the middle east...
8/17/2005 9:19 AM

Now thats art!
MKT Fire: Because your work and your artist statement has caused so much controversy on this forum alone states that your work is most definetly art.
Pakoh, did you fuse the actual blown pipes in the glass or just used flat shards
8/17/2005 7:54 PM

...
Pakoh: they are pipes i broke on purpose, then fused to boro plate...
8/17/2005 8:04 PM

It is indeed ART,
Bigbluecape: Wether or not some pompus ass thinks it is "good enough" to be called "art" or "Just arts and craft" Excuse the hell out of the artists that create art simply because we love to do so, who gives a shit if some asshole does not think it is good enough, they should use the "yardstick" they are "measuring" your art with and stick it up there......well, you know. I love your work, would love to own one of your very interesting and might I say very beautiful pipes, and I dont even smoke! it is art, and very good art.
Hallie
8/19/2005 1:29 PM

Just for the record...
Justin: It seems that some of you are taking the GlassPipes.org vs GlassArtists.org separation as an assertion that glass pipes are not art, and I want to address this issue.

There are several reasons I built a separate site for glass art pipes, and none of them have to do with their validity as art.
Many artists do not like the idea of their work being displayed alongside this more controversial medium.
While I do not philosophically agree with that thinking, I can understand where they are coming from and chose to take a pragmatic approach to the situation that I hoped would be most beneficial to ALL glass artists.

The idea behind GlassPipes.org is to present and focus specifically on glass pipes as an artistic medium.
Although there is much intermingling and overlap between glass artists who make pipes and those who don't, pipe artists are their own community and it makes sense that they should have their own site.

One other practical reason for the separation is pure numbers.
Take a look at the stats for GlassArtists.org vs GlassPipes.org.
If they were combined into one site, the pipe photos would comprise half of all the pictures on the site, assuming none of the other artists got sick of seeing all the pipes and took their work elsewhere.
Some of you have complained about the sheer numbers of beads on this site, saying they drown out the other forms of glass art.
I think the bead situation is very comparable, except for the legal/political issues.
Like pipe artists, bead artists too are their own sub-community of the greater glass art community.
For this reason I will soon be launching BeadArtists.org as its own community site.
Does this imply that beads are not art? Absolutely not.

Finally, I do still ask that pipes not be posted on GlassArtists.org.
I'm making an exception for Pakoh's work here because I like the statement he's making and because of the uncommon artistic merit of the work he's posted.

However I do not want to see this open the floodgates for everyone to start posting their pipe photos on GlassArtists.org, for the reasons stated above.
One thing I am thinking about though, is removing all production work from GlassPipes.org.
If I see one more photo of ugly prodo in a gun case I'm going to friggin vomit.
What do you guys think about a "No prodo" rule for GP?
How about a "No Gun Case" rule?

Discuss!

-j
9/2/2005 1:06 PM

funny you should mention graffiti...
Justin: ...cuz another site I've got in the works... you guessed it... GraffitiArtists.org. But as you pointed out, again it'll be walking the fine line between "Art" and "Crime". Anyone seen the latest issue of Juxtapose magazine? The whole thing is pretty much devoted to graffiti/urban art, and it does include some train photos. But yeah, I could definitely see it filling up with a bunch of self-promoting train tags with little or no artistic value.
9/2/2005 1:33 PM

My case for the "ban"
Justin: It's good to see I'm already getting some feedback here but lets keep it coming! But before we go any further I think I should explain my rationale a bit more clearly. Why am I thinking about banning prodo? Because, as I said above, "The idea behind GlassPipes.org is to present and focus specifically on glass pipes as an artistic medium." Why is this so important? Because the Powers that Be have decided that artists who make and sell glass pipes are criminals and subject to federal imprisonment. Their argument: Glass Pipes are ALWAYS drug paraphernalia, and federal law prohibits the sale of drug paraphernalia. The problem with this thinking, as we all know, is that glass pipes are not ALWAYS drug paraphernalia. They are also a form of artistic expression, as Pakoh's gallery here clearly demonstrates. This is how I would like to see glass pipes presented on GlassPipes.org. Not as a consumer good, not as drug paraphernalia generated for sale, but as ART, created for the purpose of expression. I did not create GlassPipes.org as a way to make it easier for anyone to sell drug paraphernalia, and if you tell me that banning prodo will put a stop to that, that only strengthens my resolve.

Now, on to the issue of "What is prodo?" We've all seen high end work that was still, in effect, "prodo" or even "prodo headdies". And up to now I never even considered trying to make that distinction because it really is a subjective judgement call when you're looking at any given piece. But when you see a gun case full of pieces, you know it's prodo. Why? Because if it's kept in a gun case, most likely it's being carried around for quick sale, whether it's a $5 bone or a $500 headdie. It becomes art when you TREAT it as art. Does that mean that better photography will make it art? Well, no. You could get a nice photo studio set up and take your dozens of prodo pieces, shoot each one and put them in a gallery and it would still pretty much look like an online headshop. Now, lets say instead you take ONE piece, whether it be simple or extravagant, and you spend some time taking some photos of it, as good as you're capable of using the equipment you have. You make a gallery page for this piece and put in some descriptive text to talk about it. What you like about it, what inspired you, what you were going for, what you were trying to express. Give people something to talk about and you will get feedback. Something other than "here's some of my stuff, email me to hook up with some". Look at the piece at the top of this page. It's not a 38 section triple bub covered in two inch vortex marbles. Most people wouldn't call it a "headdie". But it is absolutely beautiful and artistic, and better yet it EXPRESSES something. It's being TREATED as a work of art.

Now let me say one thing here. There is no way in hell I'm going to sit there trying to draw this line for every gallery that gets posted. This "ban" or rule, were it to be instated, would have to be enforced by you, the community. So far this has worked very well for people posting inappropriate photos and in most cases by the time I find out the person has already taken down the offending photos.

One last thing I want to talk about is the gun cases. Besides the reason mentioned above there are several other very good reasons not to photograph your artwork in gun cases. Gun case pictures look like crap. They tend to make your work look cheap and ugly. The foam makes a terrible background because it catches the light of the flash and you see all these sparkles on grey background. Having a highly detailed background like that, as opposed to a smooth gradient that a backdrop would provide, distracts the eye from the details of your piece rather than bringing them out. Worse yet, most auto-focus cameras will end up focusing on the details of the foam instead of on the details of your piece. I have seen so many hideous photos where only the foam was in focus and the piece itself was all blurry, posted at wastefully gigantic resolutions. Another bad side effect of this is that the speckly foam results in very large JPG file sizes. JPGs save space by taking large flat areas of color and compressing them. With gun case pictures the foam speckles prevent this compression and tons of disk space is wasted to preserve all those speckles. So the ugliest pictures end up taking up the MOST space on our server.

OK that pretty much explains my point of view on the whole thing, lets keep this discussion going.

-j
9/2/2005 4:02 PM

glass-pipe-artists.org
Pakoh: No prodo??? Well i guess that means good bye to the whole Nomad Gallery eh??? But seriously, i would like to thank Justin for creating and maintaining both of these sites. I am thankful to be able to get my work out to more people, and help blur the lines of pipes and art/craft or whatever. I was wondering where my other 2 galleries on the new listings went before i read this... but if you decided they should be moved i will not complain. It was prolly the Text eh??? My comments are usually meant to mess with perceptions... especially the "its not art if it is a pipe" statement. Those people inspire me to make "Pipe-Art" and throw it up all the more... like Kanye says..."its a celebration Bitches!!!"
9/2/2005 5:00 PM

This is great
Kevin Nail: Dan- I think Pakoh said that to get your exact reaction... kinda like South Park does stuff to get your reaction and leaves you feelin' kinda pissed off. He just made you *think* and that was the point. :) ...... Ummm Nubblet you need to look at my pipe gallery, Maka B's, and a few others whose names are not coming to mind at the moment and realize that color changing glass is not defined by being "prodo". There are color changing head pieces in the world now. I know cause I've made 'em. ;-) I just typed a page and a half over at the gldg about this so I'll save my rant for there... but:

BAN THE PRODO
9/2/2005 10:39 PM

Couple more things...
Justin: First off, beginner pieces and prodo pieces are not the same thing. A prodo ban would not mean a ban on simple or beginner pieces, or on wrap and rake or fumed style. It would be a ban on MASS PRODUCED pieces. It should in no way interfere with the the progression of an artist of any skill level. It's not about how much skill is displayed in the piece, it's about whether the piece is displayed as art or merchandise. This goes both ways too, even headdie pieces could be considered prodo if there's a bunch of them that are pretty close to the same. Think about a batch of prodo. The shapes and colors do vary somewhat but there's a certain amount of similarity among them all. The same could apply to a batch of prodo headdies. Now of course this would not include SERIES of pieces which is a very common artistic practice, for example, Jason Lee's Diversity Series. In a series, the artist uses multiple pieces to explore the various facets of their theme or idea. In a batch, the artist/artisan cranks out a bunch of similar pieces to cut down on the amount of planning and design involved, and make pricing and sale more easy.

Also whether or not the prodo ban goes into effect, I am writing up some posting guidelines for the site which will specifically prohibit offering any smoking utensil for sale, including the displaying of prices or invitations to buyers to contact the artist for purchase. These have always been the unwritten law but they should have been posted long ago.
9/3/2005 12:06 AM

clean it up!!
Chris A Carlson: i'm all for it. i've definitely posted prodo, but its all stuff i'm proud of, and also to show humility, to give a glimpse of my real story, to not front and pretend that i don't do it, i guess. what J Lee said is waht i feel exactly. ban the prodo, shit, i'll take mine down.hopin to be done with it anyway.always keepin it real!!!!!! chris.

and bearclaw's idea is something i've long thought about. i'd love to see the featured galleries get bumped weekly? keep it fresh, juried by peers, sounds great. i would help for sure.
9/4/2005 3:30 PM

what
Chris A Carlson: about prodo beads on glass artists? all that raz stuff? is that the same? i dont look at GA as often as GP so i'm not sure how it is, but that seems as bad as pipe prodo. what about shitty pendants? prodo pendants? those cant have much more artisitic merit than spoons. chris.
9/5/2005 4:32 AM

production beads?
Sol: last i checked even ten of these PRODO beads sell for ten times what a PRODO pipe sells for so does value make art, and again i think its funny that people who should not judge what is art are trying to judge WHAT IS ART, wanna piss people off, judge them, want your site to flourish, embrace all the artists, we all know that for most production is just a means to an end, a way to be able to afford to make a few pieces of special or headdie art, or for all us non richies,a way to be able to afford to experiment or to feed our children, do you guys really think the techs that we have been using for freakin 500 years or more need to be distinguished from PRODO art, does that mean your first doughnut should be BANNED cause its not a triple dot bow with an opal and 27 layer gold fuming, where is the love for the learning student of art , i hope people will see my point. this creation works because it showcases the good the bad and the ugly, i think peeps should just let it ride, i mean you have the choice to distinguish whos putting up art on either site, just dont look at it free will its a bitch. love you guys, but cant we all just agree to dissagree. cant we all co-exist non judgementally.
9/6/2005 8:59 AM

Glasspipe. org? OR Glasspipeart.org
Liquid Meditations: I agree that the army of poor glass being continually posted is sort of a nuisance. I admit i scroll down the list of newly posted pieces looking only at the best, usually i dont even click on anything i just take a scroll down and get back to life. But every once in awhile i see a piece of prodo or something non art that i might respond to, to hopefully give the kid a boost of moral.
The truth is these sites allow people to express themselves. I respect Justin and all but if this was meant to be glassartpipes.org then you should of made it glass pipe art .org instead of glasspipes.org. the name is as broad as our possibilities are. so why not endless possibilities. Its that free forum which has sparked conversations like this. NOW I AGREE THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME DISTINCTION OF HOW MANY cases of the same production should be posted. this takes up time and space and im sure that memory isnt free.
BUT i do hope that people will never feel oppressed because their glass isnt considered "NICE" or "ART"
I kind of feel like there should be a website devoted exclusively to Headpieces. so i can look at endless pictures of sick glass for days on end. and subject myself to scrutiny if i so want to be on that site. but i really hope the person who runs it isnt like the people i deal with when i am selling my vases or other forms of "art". because theyre usually full of shit.
Lets not let this turn into a forum where people are made to feel inadequate, or oppressed.
It is called CONSTRUCTIVE Criticism, not objective scrutiny.
i feel like there should be a top line of an agreement when you join. To respect the website and memory space and not post the same style of thing over and over againtime and time again, ok thats waht i make and there. and if someones behavior becomes inappropriate then they should be approached with a clean up or leave approach. But i do WISH that this website remain as open welcoming and free as it has always been.
i havent posted in months because i have been more occupied with furthering my own world. and to be honest i dont wanna hear oh your biting off this guys style when ive been doing that tech for 3 years now!!
Some of us wont post unless it is absolutly the newest tech style and cutting edge color, That is the pride we hold within ourselves.
But we cannot oppress the pride one may have in the cleanliness of the shape they just pulled off on one of their production spoons. I think we can ask people to use discretion and not put up 14 new galleries with the same style spoon just different colors. just put up one with a few pictures of the others. But i do not want noobs to feel oppressed like we are some elitist SNOBs, because then i will take my pictures off, and create my own website.
This SITE has always been about progress to me
It really seems like its headed in the Art only direction. everyone seems to agree. I just hope we are all careful with how we project our attitudes and feelings towards visitors and participants alike, otherwise it may not be so popular anymore.
9/7/2005 11:00 AM

By the way
Liquid Meditations: Pakoh your art sucks, but i do know someone will see that stuff as art so more power to ya. i think your pipes are much better but good luck with the big money. i guess its pretty fun to be controversial, thats waht society seems to want now a days, a cocky, controversial ,SOB
9/7/2005 11:06 AM

Lemme clarify
Liquid Meditations: By the way Pakoh. You attitude kinda sucks. i dont know why you have to be so cocky and arrogant about half the stuff you make, it really isnt that cool. Some of it honestly kind of makes the word art look bad. but it is up to the eye of the beholder, rule one as an artist
9/7/2005 11:13 AM

just have to say
Andrew Groner: It's nice to re-read this long line of posts and see in the begining the humor and reaction to it all. The fact that it is a featured gallery on glassartists.org Is simply beautiful. It really brings alot of questions and contriversal concepts about what is going on in glass art. And thank you Justin for bringing us this opportunity to question things that could go unsaid. To me, art is everywhere in everything. art is that which can not be defined. on that note, If prodo peices were to be banned, would
that be enough to say it's not art? I think the challenge is to look at the work that paco has presented and see the relationship between that and how you view what you make. Is it art? Is it just a way to make money? does that make it not art? I might say art is something you make beacause you want to make it. It could be art BECAUSE of the fact that you need to make it in order to survive. I like the idea of a prodopipes.org website. Maybe we could post sculputers and marbles there to be controversal. Any way, keep an open mind and enjoy what we all have here.

andrew-
9/7/2005 11:27 AM

ooops
Kevin Nail: Hey Chuckb- I apologize for the harsh post... my bad. I'm not trying to attack anyone here and I honestly had the craziest day yesterday and obviously was inappropriately taking some of my energy from that and directing into this discussion and at you, for that I apologize. I'm just gonna say that Liquid Meditations just summed it up pretty well imo. I certainly don't want an "elitist" vibe going on around here at all either... and I like the idea of everyone simply respecting the site i.e. amount of memory used up posting the same stuff over and over... it seems that that respect hasn't been in most people's adgenda, perhaps now it will be. But Chuckb- I'm curious- why do you ONLY make prodo? Do you really never try to have any fun with glass and just make whatever comes to mind? Like a sculpture a marble a goblet a... headdie piece? Why only prodo? Wouldn't you be more proud to post a pic of something new you tried rather than yet another prodo case? This is what I, and I think the others, are trying to push by saying "no prodo"... we're conveying the idea that people need to push themselves *artistically* within this medium we call glass.. and in this particular context- glass pipes. I'd like to see THAT become the focus of the site rather than it becoming more and more a prodo gallery as time goes on... I'm not trying to offend people like you, chuckb, who only make prodo- I'm trying to push you to be more of a diverse glass blower. And again, sorry for coming across as a asshole.
9/7/2005 11:42 AM

...
Pakoh: :)
9/7/2005 6:06 PM

Debate Moved to New GlassPipes.org Forums
Justin: Glasspipes.org now has its own forum, where I would like to direct this discussion. Please do not post further replies on this page but instead at this topic in the glasspipes.org forums.
9/8/2005 1:55 AM

oh well...
Pakoh: eventually a Jesus freak shows up.... way after the discussion had ended....

drugs are ciggarettes, alchohol, viagra, zoloft, paxil and anything else a Pharm company can shove down your throat to make a buck (with the governments approval of course).
12/16/2005 9:31 AM

For what it's worth...
Slate Grove: A pipe is a pipe is a pipe...doesn't matter if I smoke or not IT'S STILL A PIPE!!! It's always been intriguing to me why pipe makers, most of whom have aquired the skill to pull off incredible technical feats, continue to make pipes?! Choice, I guess! So if you sandblast and paint a pipe does it make it art? No. No more than sandblasting and painting anything else suddenly becomes titled as art! For what it's worth...is everything glass, art? We can all agree that we see ridiculously bad glass on a daily basis, and hell no it's not automatically art if it's made out of glass. Does your pipe suddenly become art if it's sitting on a picture frame? I don't personally think so, but I think you're the only pipe maker I've ever seen attempt a conceptual thought with a pipe and really make me think about it! So, in closing, GREAT IDEA, take it further. I've always been the closed minded furnace worker who hates it when pipe makers (or chotchsky furnace workers who make chihuly's floppy bowls) call themselves glass artists. And I commend you for making me say to you tonight..."TAKE IT FURTHER, i WANT TO CHANGE MY MIND"!!! And I hope you take this comment as a compliment, that how it was intended.

Slate Grove
ciaslate(at)yahoo.com
12/23/2005 10:59 PM

think before you speak please
MF Baker: "this is not art. dont be confused. art is not pipes. art is not controversial. Because it is glass does not make it art.because it is framed does not make it art. if it referances pipes or drugs it is not art."

first you say it's not art, but you have bubblers in a glass art gallery in canada? i feel that only the creator of something can decide whether or not it is art. so if you don't consider your work art, fine. but don't try to judge anyone else's work using this simple minded outline.
second, most good art is controversial. it's hard for it not to be.
third, ancient culture of the earth have always made art. they have always made pipes. they have always made artistic pipes. to them, herb was a lot more than a drug. who are you to judge whether thier pipes were art? drugs are a modern day invention. the mayan, aztecs, tibetans, etc. never had any laws limiting herb or other natural narcotics. these laws are a result of industrialized man made substances like heoin. herb is not in the same catagory, unless you abuse it and neglect it's 'spiritual benifits'. not everyone has to agree with this, just like not everyone has to agree with any religion. but both undeniably give people something thats beyond them.
in other words, automatically dismissing something as 'not art' simply because it's made for smoking, is like dismissing it because it has a religous theme or context. it can't be art if it's political? spiritual?
controversial? pipes are all these things and more. if you don't agree please do some research on the signifigance of smoking tobacco, marijuana and other herbs and the role that pipes played in other cultures.

and dude don't be dumb. it says all over the site to go to glasspipes.org! if you're going to put pipes on an art site at least argue that they are art! instead you come off as an insecure craftsman with no self esteem.

by the way, i personally like some of your pieces.
1/8/2006 12:32 AM

LOL
Pakoh: it is funny to me when people dont understand this gallery. have you ever heard of sarcasm???

Obviously you didnt take the time to read anyones comments on this page.

"I think Pakoh said that to get your exact reaction... kinda like South Park does stuff to get your reaction and leaves you feelin' kinda pissed off. He just made you *think* and that was the point. :) ...... " kevin nail quote from the above comments you didnt read....

"always someone missing something" -beck
1/8/2006 1:24 PM

nice work pakoh
R Jason Howard: i won't even pretend to have read any of the above,so if i say anything that's already been covered, excuse me.

wonderful stuff. it's been a while since i've seen some good references to the pipe form minus fhe function. i really like the slumped clear piece on the bottom right. i think that one says the most to me. i think it does the best job representing your ideas in the most positive way., i hope you're submitting slides to new glass review. i think these belong right here as well, and definitely have more in common with art than craft. difference between art and craft defined in one word: content. i appreciate your references to renee magrite ( and was wondering who would be the one to use it... it's time, nice job on that one too) and duchamp's urinal. they put your work in context. i think one of the best things you can do for your work is to defend it in historical context, not just call another pipe art for the hell of it. for that reason, i think your latest work is the most interesting. i'm reminded of that pipe Ease made and then sawed in half.... another favorite of mine. keep pushing the content
1/15/2006 9:21 PM

holy shit !!
Sean Stirling Smiley: what a fuckin book.........cool piece .
3/8/2006 10:24 PM
hmmmm
Bearclaw: i didn't type the last comment. not this claw.
2/1/2007 3:09 PM

art is what you make it
Danktank: art is an abstract thought
it has abstract bounds
and those bounds are not to be determined by anyone,
but at the same time determined by every individual.

thats all that needs to be said,
you don't think pipes are art..
cool.
9/14/2007 10:50 PM

also
Danktank: your work is dope...
9/14/2007 10:58 PM

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